Data-driven Design
Space design has always been a relatively linear process. A programming exercise yields the required square footage; test fits are followed by schematic design and design development, and finally, construction drawings are prepared for permitting before construction begins.
But what if the lean startup concept of an MVP (Minimum Viable Product) could be applied to design? A smaller-scale – but fully functional – prototype is built and delivered to a group of employees to collect data and understand usage behavior, and this data is used to refine the design before building it on a larger scale.
One company did just that. Austin-based NI (formerly National Instruments) partnered with Gensler on a pilot program that applied the prototype design process to build a space tailored for its people.
NI Global Facilities Senior Director Scott Strzinek and Gensler Strategy Leader Kelly Moore discuss the project, their approach, and the outcomes.
From the Episode
Neighborhood Pilot Archetypes
Pilot Workspace
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Max Chopovsky:
All right, well, welcome to the Future of Work Data-Driven Design. My name is Max Chopovsky. I help companies around the country find and negotiate the leases for their office space, ensuring that the space they have is the space they need and reflects and supports their company culture. The Future of Work is a series exploring our evolving relationship with work, how, where and why, the trends in tech disrupting and improving the workplace and perspectives from thought leaders on our new normal. Today we're going to talk about space design. The interesting thing about design is that it's always been fairly linear, right? The architect takes the tenant through a programming exercise, determines the amount of space and the types of amenities. And after a couple of test fits, you get into schematic design, design development. Finally, construction drawings pretty standard. Uh, but what if it didn't have to be so linear? What if you could prototype a proposed design, get user feedback, and then move forward? It's kind of like applying the lean startup concept of an MVP, minimum viable product to interior design. So you create smaller scale, but fully functional prototypes to collect data from your users and with that feedback, design a space that people will actually use. If that sounds crazy, let me remind you of last week's spectacular explosion of the SpaceX Starship Super Heavy rocket. Just a few minutes after liftoff, that launch was actually a learning experience. And although it was worth tens of millions of dollars to Elon Musk and his team, they collected a ton of data that they're going to use to launch the next iteration. Now, most companies do not have billions in cash, nor do they collect data by blowing up rockets. Office build-outs are expensive as it is, and prototyping is usually cost, space, and time prohibitive. But one firm did do it. NI, formerly National Instruments, was ready to embark on a redesign of its Austin HQ in 2019. They hired Gensler and then COVID hit. So they decided to step back and rethink the identity of the office altogether. And the result was the workplace pilot program. Some of what they found was unexpected. Some of what they found was expected and some was nothing short of a revelation. Today, we're going to hear from two people who led the project for NI and Gensler. Scott Strzinek is the senior director of global facilities at NI and leads a team managing over 2 million square feet of space across 70 locations in 25 countries. 7,000 employees. His innovative approach to global corporate renovations has garnered praise from clients and industry accolades including recognition from the American Institute of Architects, Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, and Austin Business Journal. Scott's true passion lies in collaborating with industry professionals to shape the future of work. By aligning space and culture, he crafts exceptional global workplace experiences that not only enhance employee engagement, but also fosters sense of belonging, enabling organizations to attract and retain top talent. Kelly Moore is the strategy leader for the South Central region at Gensler, where she collaborates with clients to implement design experience solutions built on a framework of strategy and research. Her clients are often undergoing transformation and seeking change in their work models and new strategies for how the workplace can catapult their teams to success. For over 20 years, she has helped global clients develop and implement workplace strategy and design to achieve their organizational goals and enhance the overall employee experience. Scott and Kelly, welcome.
Moore, Kelly:
Thank you.
Scott Strzinek:
Thank you.
Max Chopovsky:
So Scott, let's start with you. Describe the project and why you embarked on it and why you chose now to embark on it. And by now, I mean, when you started the project.
Scott Strzinek:
Sure. So, NI is a 45-year-old tech company based in Austin, Texas. We're on a large campus, 70 acres. Our building footprint is
Moore, Kelly:
Thanks
Scott Strzinek:
about
Moore, Kelly:
for watching!
Scott Strzinek:
750,000 square feet. We originally built this space 25 years ago. And it, you know... In 2019, it was 22 years old. So it was time for a renovation. And like most space, you know, it was designed for the function in the moment. And that, that, you know, lots has changed over the years, over the decades. So in 2019, we, we decided to do a full campus renovation. And then like you said, COVID hit and I thought for sure it was going to totally derail it. But we worked with Gensler and they, you know, Kelly and her team were magical and were able to do this workplace strategy engagement completely virtually, which I thought was impossible.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
But she was able to pull that off and after that took off, I knew that I was with, you know, an amazing design team.
Max Chopovsky:
Magical is probably the biggest compliment you can make to any partner. So, Kelly, I'm excited to hear your perspective
Moore, Kelly:
Ha
Max Chopovsky:
on this.
Moore, Kelly:
ha ha.
Max Chopovsky:
Before we
Scott Strzinek:
Hehehe
Max Chopovsky:
jump into that though, I do wanna talk a little bit about the impact of the pandemic on your real estate needs. So obviously that changed for everybody, Scott, but what did that do to your real estate needs and how did it impact your employee attendance?
Scott Strzinek:
So, you know, the pandemic hit and we had a mandate in Austin that we could only have
Moore, Kelly:
Thanks for watching!
Scott Strzinek:
critical personnel, no more than 10%. So everyone went home except for a few critical staff. These are the maintenance teams that were running the buildings and some essential engineers. Everyone else worked from home. And it was, I think most people experienced if you were in the office during that time, it was a... Um, spooky. Um, uh, we had, we had all sorts of protocols and masking and thermal imaging and all of the things, um, um, to make sure that we were safe, but essentially, um, our real estate was, was empty. And, um, you know, I think we all thought that this was going to be relatively temporary or short-term, you know, maybe not put a, a time, a timeframe on it, but we, um, We just assumed that, okay, once this is over, we're going to come back to work. And so the initial impact to our real estate was really minimal. You know, we kind of kept business as usual from a real estate standpoint. We did some renovations. We did lease renewals. We moved a few places. And so we kind of acted like it was normal until... you know, two years into it, then we realized, this is, you know, this is not a temporary thing. Um,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
so, uh, it was a, it was a strange time for sure, because we, we kind of acted like, like we were going to get back to normal.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and as you started this project on this long journey of going back to normal, how did you ensure that you were getting a wide representation of employee perspectives is actually getting input from your users without having too many cooks in the kitchen.
Scott Strzinek:
So this is like from a design perspective, right?
Max Chopovsky:
Yes, so as you were trying to get input on the design process, you obviously wanted to make sure that you were taking into account what your people were doing, how they were using the space. But
Scott Strzinek:
Yes.
Max Chopovsky:
if you have too many perspectives, it slows things down and it's hard to please everybody. It's impossible to please everybody. So
Scott Strzinek:
So do it.
Max Chopovsky:
how did you do that?
Scott Strzinek:
So we initially started, we didn't go straight into the design process. We started with this workplace strategy engagement, and that's where we engaged Kelly and her team. And the summary of that engagement is that we learned how we work and how we want to work in the future. And that's actually a complex process. who is in your office, what the teams are, how many people there are. I did know we had 26 teams across campus and each one of them had very unique needs. And so the workplace strategy engagement helped define all of those different requirements. And Kelly, if you want to go more into the workplace strategy engagement, because that
Moore, Kelly:
Thanks
Scott Strzinek:
was
Moore, Kelly:
for
Scott Strzinek:
really
Moore, Kelly:
watching!
Scott Strzinek:
the essential starting point for this whole process.
Moore, Kelly:
Yeah, and I mean, you all had also surveyed your employees right before we came on board. So it was a matter of taking that information and that research that you all had already done and really coupling it with starting to engage stakeholders from a leadership level, but also diving in deep to the organization and doing workshops and understanding, as Scott said, what people do, what they were doing in their current state before everybody was sent home. And starting over time, as we realized, we weren't going back to work in June, and we weren't going back to work in September, and we weren't going back the following year, what were the expectations kind of over that time
Moore, Kelly:
Right. So it was just, you know, continuing to engage them to understand how expectations shifted from how they used to work to what those expectations would be when they returned to work. And continually understanding how their work might change. in changing the strategy of what that might be realized in space. And I think that that's really when we realized that a pilot was a good idea. Instead of saying this is how a future campus should look, stepping back and saying let's experiment and learn kind of in flight in real time what we can experiment with. and learn from the people versus taking it to a larger scale.
Max Chopovsky:
Was this the first time that you used this kind of process with experimentation, Kelly?
Moore, Kelly:
It was for me. And it wasn't something that we saw a lot of clients doing before the pandemic, but we see a lot of clients moving to that now. And it just seems like a smarter way of doing business. And I think that that's something that Scott's seen a lot of value out of as well.
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah, it's almost an obvious approach. And I've done hundreds of renovations in my career and this is the first time I've ever done it too. But if it makes sense to try something at a small scale before you make this huge investment on a large scale, you want to make sure that you get it right and that the piloting process does that. And so it seems obvious now that we've done it. But it's... it's a pretty unique process.
Moore, Kelly:
And I think what was also really nice about the pilot is, you know, as we were designing it, it's not just a design that you... you complete the design and you execute it and somewhat deliver it to the end users. But we were actually engaging the end users in workshops and co-creating that design. So you're bringing those users along on the design journey, and that's not always the case. And to me, that's probably what makes that whole process the most unique. And really, it creates from the users and they get excited about it and they're part of it. So while you have, you know, this whole anxiety around returning to the office after all of this time at home, you're somewhat tempering that because you've brought these users on the journey of co-creating what that future is.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a, it's a wonderful approach because if somebody feels like they're a part of decision-making process, then they just inherently are more engaged in the solution. Right.
Moore, Kelly:
Right.
Scott Strzinek:
for sure.
Max Chopovsky:
Uh, so, so Scott, as you, uh, sort of were going through this process, What were you finding about your space utilization, especially during, call it the initial discovery? What were you finding and did any of it surprise you?
Scott Strzinek:
Well, our space utilization just changed. You know, I mean, we went from, you know, historically work is where you go,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
right? You do work in the office, but now work is what you do. And so through the pandemic, we were both equipped and socialized to work anywhere. And so for the first time ever, the office had competition.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
And if you don't have a mandate, it's really important to compel people back to the office. And that's what I believe that my role is in the company is to compel people, to create an environment not to force them to come back to the office, but to create a center of gravity that's so strong that it is their best place to work. So it was an unusual shift. It was an unexpected shift. I think for everyone to have, you know, work is what you do, not where you go.
Max Chopovsky:
So let's drill down on that for a minute.
Moore, Kelly:
Hehehe
Max Chopovsky:
So how did you then redefine the role of the office as the center of gravity and how is this reflected in its design?
Scott Strzinek:
So because we have choice now, we really need to create an environment that has purpose. And the way to do that, this workplace strategy engagement, sort of the process that we went through with Gensler, really we dug deep to understand how people work, exactly what they're doing when they come to the office, what they're doing in the office. And if you think about your day, you know, you... could start a day having a standup meeting with a team, and then you could have a virtual meeting. Maybe you've got some people in a room and people on the screen. You need some heads down time for emails. You need some quiet space. You need to have a place to eat lunch. Maybe you need to call your spouse or your doctor so you need privacy there. You could have a large conference room. full of people and then maybe you want to have some celebration at the end of the day. That's one day for one person. You have all these different activities and one space type is really not going to enable all of those activities. So they really, if you really dig deep and understand how your employees work and then you deliver a space or a variety of that really creates that gravity to where it becomes the best place for them. There's also a technology layer that's incredibly important, right? So you have all these spaces, but I use the example of like, it wasn't that long ago where if you wanted to go see a movie, especially if it was like a premiere, and you wanted to have a good experience in that movie, you wanted to sit right in the middle. You had to show up an hour early, right? And stand in line and make sure that you got there before everyone else, right? And it's stressful. It used to drive me crazy. But that's how you did it. There was all this friction that led up to that moment to where you're, you know, rushed into the best seat. If you have technology tools, that really reduces the friction. So you have things like, you know, great Wi-Fi, great collaboration tools. conference room booking tools, hotel desk booking tools if you're hoteling, you know, even online tools to order one, like all of those tools, especially as you start to layer them, it really reduces the friction, it reduces the stress. And if you know that you're gonna have all the spaces you need to do your best work, and that's gonna be the place that you choose. So the technology
Scott Strzinek:
is a big important layer to it.
Max Chopovsky:
So, Kelly, from your perspective, you
Moore, Kelly:
Mm-hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
got these requirements from Scott and his team at NI about the different kinds of spaces, some of the technology requirements. What were your next steps at that point? How did you translate that into at least the initial ideas of the design?
Moore, Kelly:
Yeah, so it was taking a look and also realizing that... There's the pilot, but it's looking at what is the entire ecosystem. You know, at a campus level, what will be provided? At a building level, what will be provided? At a floor level, at a neighborhood level.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Moore, Kelly:
And then understanding what's the balance of spaces that we provide. And then how does it start to support the individual groups? So whether that's, you know, an engineering and development group, or whether that's an administrative group and really starting to work with those groups. For instance, like their R&D group operates very differently than an administrative or business group. So what are the spaces or the neighborhoods and the space types and the makeup of space types that they need to support them? And so how do we experiment with those? And it even comes down to the desking and the desking being very different for an R&D group than an administrative type group. So how do we start to experiment with those things and support them and lay out those spaces to support them. I think I was also talking about what are some behavioral shifts that need to change. I think that's been a big conversation topic across organizations of as
Scott Strzinek:
So.
Moore, Kelly:
we move back into space what are some of those behavioral shifts that need to change. Especially if we're looking at desks that aren't necessarily assigned and we're looking at a lot of increased focus spaces. ensuring that people don't go and squat in those focus spaces all day that they're
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Moore, Kelly:
available for, you know, those people that need to step in for respite from the open workspace or make a call to a doctor or a spouse as Scott was mentioning. So I'd be curious to know from Scott, you know, how much behavioral shift and did that seem to take a long time within the pilot space for teams to kind of change and shift a little bit?
Max Chopovsky:
Great question.
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah, I think initially we had some people, it seemed like it was the more senior, the
Moore, Kelly:
Ha
Scott Strzinek:
people
Moore, Kelly:
ha ha.
Scott Strzinek:
the worst, the behavior almost.
Moore, Kelly:
You're right.
Scott Strzinek:
And I say that respectfully to any of the senior folks that are listening to this. But it's really easy to go into a room that's warm and inviting and it has the tools you need and it's got the acoustics and it's private and stuff. It's so easy to put your stuff down, especially if you're traveling.
Moore, Kelly:
and stay
Scott Strzinek:
If you're traveling
Moore, Kelly:
a while.
Scott Strzinek:
to that office, yeah,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
and to just camp out there all day. But what you're doing is you're taking away resources for the rest of the company, the rest of the folks. So it became almost self-monitoring and self-regulating. We empowered our residents of our pilot space to... to speak up when we saw people kind of breaking the rules. And we actually, in Facilities, did sort of an education campaign to help people understand the purpose of each one of the spaces. And we had a space called the library, and it was intended to be no phones, no talking, none of that. And we had signs on the great graphics on the door as you go in. to help convey that in sort of a cool engineering way, that this is a quiet space. And so throughout the introduction of the pilot, each one of our spaces kind of had a different purpose and you have to teach your employees what those purposes are and then they kind of settle in. Because if this space doesn't work for them, well, you've got other spaces that will.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, it's almost like change management, it becomes a big part of the process. And not only that,
Scott Strzinek:
for sure.
Max Chopovsky:
but education kind of goes hand in hand with it. And once you get to the point of self-regulation, you are really fundamentally shifting behaviors in the long run. It's like, if you compare the American culture to the Japanese culture, for example, right? In the American culture, it's very individualistic. And if people, again, I'm speaking in very general terms, see a conference
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
room that's designed for 12 people, but it's the first one they see and they're in town
Max Chopovsky:
just want to sit, they sit down, right. Because it's easiest for them, for them.
Moore, Kelly:
Right.
Max Chopovsky:
But In the Japanese culture, for example, that person would say, well, where should I go? Right. What, and if I don't know what resources are there for me to understand where I should go and how is this going to benefit the team versus myself? So the fact that you've,
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
you're getting to the point or have gotten to the point where people have shifted their thinking so significantly as to be able to consider the team first, that in and of itself is a victory of the design, you know? What I'd like to know is when we think about, when we've thought about metrics historically, metrics to establish real estate needs were
Scott Strzinek:
enough.
Max Chopovsky:
pretty simple. Square footage per
Moore, Kelly:
Ha
Max Chopovsky:
person,
Moore, Kelly:
ha ha.
Max Chopovsky:
and
Scott Strzinek:
Hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
you run that through, you know, maybe a filter of how much, how many common spaces are you gonna have. Now I feel like there's additional filters of how many of those people, how much of your head count is even located around your headquarters. So it was actually gonna go into the office. and how many of them might have moved across the country. And then of those people that are local, how many of them are in the office and how many of them are in the office on enough days to warrant a dedicated workspace? So it's become a lot more complicated. So I'm curious in this scenario, and this is for both of you, what metrics were used to establish your real estate needs in terms of the footprint and why did you focus on those metrics?
Scott Strzinek:
Kelly, you want to start?
Moore, Kelly:
Yeah, and you know for the pilot, I mean I can't. really speak to that because we were just moving a few teams in and out there, right?
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Moore, Kelly:
And then in all transparency, I am not sure how we then applied it to the rest of the campus. I can say outside of NI, like what we're starting to see is how do we start to weigh different work points outside of the desk. Does everybody get an assigned desk based on how often they're in the office?
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Moore, Kelly:
And then also, how do we start to weigh alternate work points and understanding how well they might support dwell time? So for instance, if I'm only in the office two days a week, are there alternate work points that I can go to when I am in the office and so I don't need an assigned desk? And how many of those alternate work points do we support? provide that can support me from a focus or collaboration standpoint based on how long I might dwell at them. So there are all different ways that we're starting to program space
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Moore, Kelly:
and understand outside of an individual desk what we need to provide. It's programming in a whole different way than what we were doing prior to the pandemic, which is very interesting. But Scott, if you want to talk about how you all are approaching it from a campus-wide standpoint.
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah, well, you know, historically it was pretty easy. You just,
Moore, Kelly:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
it's a multiplier, right? You figure out the square foot, a square foot per person and, and, and, you know, that's your footprint. All that blew up. So in the, in, in this process that we went through with Gensler, they introduced us to the concept of work modes. And we, we took that as our inspiration. to create an initiative that we call Workplace for Everyone.
Max Chopovsky:
Thanks for watching!
Scott Strzinek:
And this WFE initiative had a lot of different components to it, but one thing it did was it introduced and socialized work modes into NI. And essentially those modes were on-site, hybrid, and remote. We had three work modes. Everyone had to self-declare what their work mode was. And it was approved by their manager and some of it made sense. You know, it was obvious, like if you're a manufacturing worker, if you're on the production line, you're an onsite worker, right?
Max Chopovsky:
Hmm.
Scott Strzinek:
But others, there was some flexibility there. And basically what we did was we defined onsite as 80 to 100% in the office. Hybrid was 20% to 80%. So you know, one to four days, two to four days. And remote was one to zero. And what that did was that helped set expectations all around of how people were going to, were going to work, where they were going to work. And what it's done for me and my team is it helps inform us
Moore, Kelly:
Thanks for watching!
Scott Strzinek:
how big offices are going to be because we know everyone's work mode so we can... understand, we generally understand what a hybrid worker looks like. And we've got roughly two thirds of our employees, 65% are hybrid workers. They don't all need a dedicated desk all the time. We've given guidance that if you're here three days a week, you're probably eligible for a full-time desk, but otherwise you'll have a hoteling desk. That starts to shift what our footprint of space looks like. It also changes the activities that happen there. Like if I'm there one or two days a week, I'm probably not gonna be sitting at my desk 100% of the time, right? I come to collaborate, I come to use all the tools that are at our disposal. I'm up and about in different rooms, different space types all day. So I don't need a dedicated desk, but what I do need is I need all those different space types that we talked about earlier. So it shifts the way that we design space, not only from a desk to person ratio, but it also shifts the design to ensure that we incorporate all those space types that we need now.
Max Chopovsky:
Now, do you sublease some of that space or somehow get rid of the space that you're not using or do you reconfigure it to reflect the way that people are working?
Scott Strzinek:
Both. So another metric that we use outside of the work modes is attendance data from our access control system.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Scott Strzinek:
So this is badge data. And badge data is really important because we found if we ask somebody how many people are in the office on a given day, it seems to be very different than what the data demonstrates.
Moore, Kelly:
Perception
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
Right?
Moore, Kelly:
versus reality.
Max Chopovsky:
Yep.
Scott Strzinek:
That's right. That's right. And there's different motivations, uh, why that happens, but, but, but there's definitely a Delta between the two. So the, the, our badge data is really the primary source of truth. Um, and we ensure that, that, you know, you're sort of have to badge in to ensure that we capture that. It's all aggregate data, right? It's, uh, but that. That tells us what our utilization is. And so what we've done over time is we, we take the utilization. And if we have a really big office with a super low attendance rate, that seems to be a long-term pattern, it's, it's time to, to, to put some sunshine on that. And
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
to,
Moore, Kelly:
Ha ha.
Scott Strzinek:
you know, really rationalize that office or do something with it. And, and, um, we do space reductions. Sometimes we'll, uh, We'll transition out of a lease into a co-working space and then other times we'll close the office
Max Chopovsky:
Now, did you ever, because there are some companies where I've heard of this happening, so I'm curious how it has sort of gone down culturally at NI. Were there any cases of managers or higher leadership being concerned about productivity given that? a lot more people can work from home and are either hybrid or remote first. Did you see any of that? And if so, how was it addressed? How did it shake out?
Scott Strzinek:
I don't think it was productivity. I think it was more culture. I think the longer you're away from everyone, the more your culture can erode, unless you have a really strong, vibrant way of maintaining your culture virtually, which is tough, right? The office is really the center of the... of the enterprise that is a place that really demonstrates the culture in a physical form. And so I think that was more of a concern than it was productivity. We were able to have record revenue during the pandemic. So clearly, from a metric standpoint, productivity wasn't really an issue.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. I love that you go to hard numbers because, you know, if,
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
if people can get it done from anywhere, who cares if they're in the office besides obviously the impact on culture. Uh, Kelly, I want to go to you for a minute. So when we think about. Some of the designs that are being done today, whether it's NI or some of your other clients, what trends are you seeing? What design trends are you seeing in the sort of broader office market that are new and maybe the products of the last few years of sort of these shifting norms in the way we work.
Moore, Kelly:
Yeah, so definitely what we've been talking about, new ways of planning and experimenting. And I think those things are here to stay. The last few years have given us agency to these ideas. And some of it's been led by the... increased uncertainties that organizations are having to anticipate and plan in wider ranges. So whether that's uncertainties of the economy, you know, the geopolitical natures of the climate. But I think some of this is also that we're, in the last two years, we've become more empathetic and more aware that people work very differently, even on a similar task. So it's no longer that one size fits all for everybody. So we're open to new ways of planning and creating new space types. So we're looking at planning with a different lens and understanding what spaces are working best for supporting our teams and our individuals and then taking them to scale. So I think that that's something that's really new and a trend that I think is here to stay. And then I think also the idea of measuring experience outcomes such as, so if we go back to metrics, outcomes such as engagement, well-being, and equity. So a whole different set of metrics, if you will, versus just square foot per person. So in addition to those spatial metrics, we look at these metrics as success indicators assess the performance of the workplace. It's this whole idea that the workplace you know isn't just a place where you go that it has to be this entire experience for when you're there. So it's you know it's lending itself to a whole new set of metrics that that need to be assessed. And then you know I would say a is this idea that hybrid and flexibility won't stick. I think that that's something that's here to stay, and it's something that's wags real estate decisions, and that we have to be agile and smart in those decisions that we make around that.
Max Chopovsky:
measuring experience outcomes is challenging and critical at the same time.
Moore, Kelly:
Right.
Scott Strzinek:
Totally, totally, totally.
Max Chopovsky:
It's fascinating. I write a newsletter for my clients and the headline for Q1 was, uh, 2023 is the year of the experience. It's the experiential
Moore, Kelly:
Right.
Max Chopovsky:
year
Scott Strzinek:
Hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
where that is what draws people out of their homes. It's what justifies the commute. It's what brings them together at the end of the day. Um, what I want to know is,
Moore, Kelly:
Mm-hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
as you compare the space. the office space of 2023 to the office space of even 2019, let's just say there has been so much innovation over the last few years. I mean, Scott, you talked about it earlier, even in the midst of the pandemic, you had to innovate technologically to even make sure that the space was safe for those 10% that came in.
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
So I'm curious, Kelly, I'd love to get your perspective. If you think about design, furniture, PropTech, even AI, what innovations do you think are gonna have some of the biggest impact on the office sector?
Moore, Kelly:
So I actually think of it and it's more based because of what I do from this
Moore, Kelly:
oh, yeah, it's I think of it More of innovation that maybe you can't see versus you know Tangible things like furniture and maybe design elements that you do see and that probably comes from the lens of what I do You know sitting more in a strategy world than a even though they intersect. But I think of sensors and AI as something that really is gonna propel forward in the design world. And it goes back to kind of that idea of measuring experience, right? So you think of sensors and AI, it gives us a whole new way of learning and measuring, but also managing business. And sensors is something that's been around and people get a little funny about it, but it's
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Moore, Kelly:
something
Scott Strzinek:
I
Moore, Kelly:
that
Scott Strzinek:
have some
Moore, Kelly:
really
Scott Strzinek:
experience
Moore, Kelly:
can,
Scott Strzinek:
with that.
Moore, Kelly:
it's something that can really, can give us so much information. And so for instance, we have data analytics strategists that that's the world they sit in, and they can take all of those insights, even from badging data that you think can be very simple data, but it can give us so much, and it can give us data in a very anonymous way, but it can tell us stories from this, these technologies and create models that allow us to inform our clients to improve experience while also aligning on business goals. And it can go really deep and I think if we leverage those technologies, the sensors, and AI, it can really lead us to different experiences that we create within the workplace. And I think in the past we haven't leveraged them and I think that there's the ability to do that now and and the really rich information that comes out of them, of those stories is really powerful.
Max Chopovsky:
Now you, you mentioned stories and Scott, judging by your reaction, I have a feeling you you have a story about this sensor data. Uh, so tell us about that.
Scott Strzinek:
So I'm a data guy, I love it. And I think it's great and it gives a lot of insight. I think the introduction of it is really important. The introduction of it into like how it's gonna be used is incredibly important. This is probably 10 years ago. we installed sensors at people's desks. It was anonymous. We were looking for aggregate data. About a week later, I come in and I had a pile of sensors on my desk.
Max Chopovsky:
Amazing.
Moore, Kelly:
And those were anonymous too, how they got there.
Scott Strzinek:
Totally, totally, totally.
Max Chopovsky:
Right.
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah, they weren't going to have it. I think that I'm not as attuned to the sensor technology presently. I'm sure it's come a long way. since a decade ago. But I love the concept because it's not just a badge swipe that says, you know, a hundred people were in the office today, but it really starts to help inform us on what spaces are used, how much they use, when they're used. And the more centered technology and the more application of it, the the better the data is that can inform you. And then you can start really getting incredible insights of what spaces are used or what aren't. And then you can start building towards that. So I love the concept. I just think that you really have to socialize it appropriately and because if you don't, you're gonna end up with a bunch of technology on
Moore, Kelly:
on your desk.
Scott Strzinek:
the director's desk.
Max Chopovsky:
sensors
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
on your desk. Yeah, totally.
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
Now...
Scott Strzinek:
I would
Max Chopovsky:
Go
Scott Strzinek:
like
Max Chopovsky:
ahead Scott.
Scott Strzinek:
to go back to one comment about the sort of the changes that are coming, because I think this is important. Kelly, you were talking about
Moore, Kelly:
Mm-hmm.
Scott Strzinek:
some design change and stuff. And I think the focus on accommodations in the space, like not all of us are the same and we have. We have. different health issues and we have different religious issues and we've got different, you know, all different kinds of things that make space work for some of us and not others. And historically what I've done, and I think most of us do when we build space is we build it for the majority and
Moore, Kelly:
The 80
Scott Strzinek:
everyone
Moore, Kelly:
versus
Scott Strzinek:
moves
Moore, Kelly:
the
Scott Strzinek:
in
Moore, Kelly:
20.
Scott Strzinek:
and then, yeah, yeah, exactly, we build it for the 80% and then the 20% come in and it just doesn't work for them, right? And these are... You know, we sort of put everybody into a accommodations bucket, the folks that have migraines or they're on the autism spectrum or they need a place to give themselves injections or they have some religious accommodation, right? All those people are, you know, obviously critically important to the company. And historically, we have not incorporated them into the design process. It's always after the fact. unscrewing light bulbs above certain desks and you lower the blinds and you tell people to get injections in the restrooms and it's just a terrible solution for the 20%. What we did, thanks to Gensler, is we got together a group that we called NI-Enable and it was a group that represented all these folks that needed accommodations and we brought them into the early into the design process. We got a really good understanding of what those accommodations were, and then we just built it into the design. And it wasn't a big deal, it wasn't a big expense. Flicker-free LED lights, for example, or a space that somebody could go pray or meditate, a place where they could have injections, diabetes injections, or whatever the case may be. And it was inexpensive. It solved a lot of issues that a typical renovation process would not even begin to address.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Scott Strzinek:
And we got a lot of really grateful employees because of it. So again, it's one of those things that seems obvious that you would always do that. But for whatever reason, it wasn't. And I'm just so grateful for Gensler. for introducing us to that concept.
Moore, Kelly:
Yeah, I mean, I really do think that comes from, you know, the last two, three years. I mean, there is something about all of us going through the pandemic that I think, you know, well-being was a trend prior to the pandemic. I think
Scott Strzinek:
Mm-hmm.
Moore, Kelly:
the experience accelerated it all for us. And, you know, it's unfortunate that it took a pandemic for that
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Moore, Kelly:
to happen, but it's very much, it's not an add-on any longer, right? Well-being, it's very much something that is being included and the idea of inclusive design and bringing in and making sure that our workplaces include. neurodiverse accommodations
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Moore, Kelly:
into the workplace is very important. You know, I'll say the other thing quickly that I wanted to mention that I think when you think what are the greatest impacts, what's the greatest impact on the office sector that you're asking Max is the other big conversation that we're having with clients is that of the idea of sustainability. Thank you. from design, meaning like how can our strategies and our design be sustainable in the sense of long-term sustainable strategies and being smart and agile and flexible, but then even taking that to the sense of, you know, how is it sustainable from a climate impact standpoint? We're having a lot of conversations around that. And sometimes it's challenging because I think when you start to talk about climate impact, have to be an expert if they're even going to talk about that subject because
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Moore, Kelly:
it's a very
Scott Strzinek:
It's big.
Moore, Kelly:
challenging, it's a big
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah.
Moore, Kelly:
and it has so many facets to it and you start to talk
Scott Strzinek:
That's right.
Moore, Kelly:
about a lot of words that seem challenging, you know, as far as like trying to be net zero, carbon neutral, trying to shrink our footprint and so, you know, I think that whole topic has a lot of impact when you think about the office sector and so sometimes it's just starting with small shifts. from using the right materials to even introducing pyophilia into the design solutions. But I think that's going to be one of the biggest impacts to the office sector as well.
Max Chopovsky:
I mean, gosh, the irony that the pandemic
Moore, Kelly:
Ha ha
Max Chopovsky:
fast tracked a sense of empathy and helped us to recognize each other's humanity and all of the office design implications and the cultural shifts that flow from that is hopefully not lost on anyone because it certainly cost us. as the world a lot,
Moore, Kelly:
too much,
Max Chopovsky:
right?
Moore, Kelly:
yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
Too much.
Scott Strzinek:
Yeah,
Max Chopovsky:
Uh,
Scott Strzinek:
for sure.
Max Chopovsky:
so, um, we damn well better have a silver lining, you know? Uh,
Moore, Kelly:
Right.
Max Chopovsky:
so we'll thank you both so much for, uh, for joining, uh, Kelly Moore strategy leader for the South Central region at Gensler and Scott Strzinek, senior director of global facilities. And I really appreciate you joining and sharing your wisdom.
Moore, Kelly:
Enjoyed it. Thank you.
Scott Strzinek:
Thank you so much.
Max Chopovsky:
Thank you. For more information, visit our website where you'll find show notes and the episode will be published on Spotify and Apple as well. Thank you everyone for joining the future of work and we will talk to you next time.